Question about unit balance?

Discussions about Kallistra's Hex Based Rules
Jorgen_CAB
Posts: 9
Joined: Thu May 08, 2014 2:42 pm

Re: Question about unit balance?

Post by Jorgen_CAB »

I have done a lot of studying into the "100 year wars" in particular and in many other time periods as well and it is rather clear how and what effect the mounted soldier had.

At Agincourt the first charge of the knights was premature and they had become seriously disrupted before they reached the English lines, the mud mainly slowed their charge down and allowed the archers to fire a couple of extra volleys. It was of coerce a disaster, most scholars that I have read seem to conclude that the result would probably have been the same anyway, it was the premature charge that was the primary factor for the French to loose the battle. If they had just continued advancing with a combined force of dismounted Men-at-Arms supported by crossbow fire they would most likely have won the battle on attrition alone.

There are a few important things to understand about cavalry, their use and importance on a battlefield. Their main advantage is mobility and chock. The way you can quickly mount an aggressive offensive against a weakened or unprepared enemy formation is the single most important use of cavalry in conjunction with mobile firepower.

The one problem with cavalry is that they can never match the power of force of a unified infantry line. In an unbroken and well led infantry line every horsemen are usually outnumbered at least five to one in any given point at a battle line if the infantry is armed with any sort of spear or pole-arm weapon. Cavalry have a very hard time attacking in more than one rank at a time while good order and trained infantry can use three or more ranks and each cavalryman faces at least two (perhaps more) infantrymen in width per mounted soldier.

If the infantry hold and don't run on the initial impact most cavalry will quickly get overwhelmed by the cheer number of attacks coming their way. If the first rank of cavalry cant break into the formation then they either have to retire so the second rank can engage or simply be bogged down. This has always spelled doom for cavalry since the dawn of time.

Good cavalry on the other hand could attack and retire and keep doing this until the enemy either tired and ran away or got so sick and tired that they tried to chase after them. If either of that happened it often ended in disaster for the infantry. In open space all the favor are in the mounted soldiers side because now it is they who will get local superiority in strength.

Believe me when I say it is very hard to find many battle recount of a cavalry formations successfully charging headlong into a good order infantry formation and routing it without either being far superior in numbers or being up against peasant levies.

Even in the time before the "100 Years War" in the earlier periods of the middle ages commanders almost never sent in the cavalry before first engaging their archers and infantry. It was a well known fact that a strong spear formation could form a wall of spears and just hunker down behind their shields. They would then use skirmishing archers to take potshots at the cavalry. There are many such references made on battlefield tactics.

A very good example of this is the "battle or Arbedo". It is a rather classical pitched battle with a smaller Swiss force against a larger Milanese force is 1422. Just the total number of knights were larger than the Swiss force but the Swiss had advantage of terrain in that their force could not be flanked. The cavalry made several failed and costly attacks at the Swiss (equipped mostly with halberds).
When the cavalry failed to break the enemy they dismounted their knights who instead used their lances as pikes and together with crossbowmen could beat back the Swiss who had to retreat. With their lances used as pikes they would outreach the Swiss halberds, they could not on horseback.

This is not the only example, there are many such examples and very few that say otherwise.

One big thing to understand is how hard it is to find a good solid battleground in Europe where you really can utilize the full force of cavalry with thousands upon thousands of mounted warriors. This is also a rather great factor to consider. As long as the cavalry can not use their mobility to surprise and chock an experienced and trained infantry formation it will become an impenetrable wall.

One of the other key strength of cavalry was the ability to move an army quickly, deploy quickly and charge early. If you had a large cavalry force you could be able to deploy and charge before the enemy deployed properly and you would use the confusion to your advantage. Some English armies in the "100 Years Wars" would actually be fully mounted, even the archers as I understand it. They would raid and plunder and avoid the enemy and then draw up a battle on a suitable spot to their advantage. They could now prepare their defenses and that way gain a superior advantage. That way they were a good mounted infantry force since most of the Men-at-Arms would fight in a dismounted formation as well.

A perfect use of cavalry can be seen in the Battle of Poitiers by the English that use their reserve of lighter mounted sergeant to flank the French force after fierce fighting. Their cavalry had been hidden in a small wooded are in the English rear. This was what broke the French army that day, it is not certain the English could have won the battle without this move.

Eastern heavy cavalry was far more effective than western heavy cavalry. They used lighter and faster horses and many formations also carried missile weapons. This gave their cavalry a whole new meaning when deployed on the more common open plains. But even such armies would have huge difficulties fighting on the European scene and would still be at the mercy of combined missile and heavy infantry formations, still they were of much higher quality overall.

So don't get what I say as if I don't think that cavalry was important or potent, or that heavy cavalry was weak. They were neither of those things. It's just that the myth of the head on charge is too widely spread when the strength of cavalry had so many other uses that made them important.

My conclusion is, that, no matter what armor or training you give the mounted warrior they can never overcome the shear local superiority of an infantry line of defense. So, without infantry being either weak, ill trained, low on moral, fatigued or disrupted you would have very low chances to charge with impetus alone. My research in the matter see this as irrefutable facts from ancient times until the disuse of cavalry.

Sorry for another long wall of text... ;)

** Edit **

Here is an interesting article on medieval warfare and the Myths about it... http://deremilitari.org/2013/06/the-myt ... l-warfare/

It does imply that infantry was a greater part of medieval warfare. I have also read some of the sources given in the text.
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Paul K
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Re: Question about unit balance?

Post by Paul K »

Hi Jorgen,

I have just returned from my trip to the Carronade wargames show in Scotland and read your posts. Wow, you have raised a lot of interesting points which should generate healthy discussion! I concur with many of the issues that you have raised and as I worked through your posts I felt that you were beginning to dig below the surface of the H&H system and identify with the philosophical thinking underpinning what is very much a fast-play, flexible and ‘entertaining’ game system.

The H&H game mechanics are the key to the system and not the specified combat and points values in the army lists – these have been designed to not only reflect the historical composition and of various armies, but more importantly perhaps, to also provide for balanced games in which very different armies can be pitched against each other, using appropriate tactics and strategies so as to make the outcomes more dependent upon the players level of generalship than choice of armies. H&H provides a framework onto which you can put your own preferences for the relative strengths and weaknesses of particular troop types according to the particular scenario/game you want to play. For example, you can make heavy formed infantry ‘A’ class against ‘D’ class mounted knights with a combat factor of 3 instead of 5, and reduced impact bonus, to re-fight and more accurately reflect a particular historical encounter.

You have talked about the changing use and effectiveness of mounted heavy cavalry through the medieval period – most of the issues raised I tend to agree with, however, I feel that you have perhaps not yet taken into consideration the effect of terrain and command and control on unit performance – this dramatically effects the performance of mounted cavalry. You have mentioned the 100 years war – a fascinating conflict. Years ago I read many publications focussing on various battles and encounters which took place during this war and developed a particular interest in the major battles of Crecy and Agincourt - two battles fought in relatively close proximity to each other but over 60 years apart! They provide for a fascinating comparison of the mounted charge (Crecy) and the advance on foot (Agincourt) against mass longbows. However, despite my reading, it wasn’t until I walked the two battlefields that I began to realise that it was the terrain and its interrelationship with the command and control of the opposing armies that decided both encounters and had perhaps more effect on the outcome than the relative ‘quality’ of the troops engaged.

HHM has been used to refight Agincourt and Crecy a number of times – both the Agincourt games resulted in English victories and 3 of the 4 Crecy games resulted went the same way. The one French win was achieved when mounted French knights broke through the centre and captured Edward III. In all these games the French command and control range was reduced to one hex to represent the poor leadership and control exercised within the French armies, which was to a large extent influenced by the English choice of terrain and pre-battle preparation of the ground. See Crecy game report. Link

I know I haven’t addressed a number of the issues raised but I will look at these and get back to you. Consider the H&H medieval system as a flexible game system – a constructed framework/mechanism, onto which you can add additional details and make alterations to suite your own requirements. Players like it because on a club night you can achieve a decisive result with 200 point armies in two hours and feel that the decisions of the general and not the roll of the dice decided the game – well, rolling sixes at the right time does still tend to help!
Kind regards
Paul

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Gabz
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Re: Question about unit balance?

Post by Gabz »

yes I thoroughly agree about wanting to play a game that tests a player's tabletop skills rather than army list building skills :-)
I lost count of the number of GW games I lost just because I did not know the latest combinations of units and heroes - whereas Hordes and Heroes totally disregards such nonsense ...
Jorgen_CAB
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Joined: Thu May 08, 2014 2:42 pm

Re: Question about unit balance?

Post by Jorgen_CAB »

I have done a couple of games with the rules and tried a few minor historical variation and they did end up in rather historical results so I do think that they overall works pretty well.

This weekend I did a quick solo test game (using the point system) with two version of the heavy cavalry, one with the normal rules and then one slightly altered. I made the cavalry get a Melee of 3(+4) then the dismounted men at arm was essentially 5(+1). This made the strength and melee value sort of equal between two mounted and one dismounted units with a distinct advantage in Impact for the mounted Men-at-Arms. The Knights also got a reduction of two points per unit.

I certainly agree that skill seem to be more important than the roll of the dice. In my last game the French knights broke the English right flank and rampaged into the rear. Although, first there was some confusion on the French command but once they asserted control of the knights they turned into the English line and it soon crumbled.

The battle was between a French and English imaginary force of about 200p, both battles were intense and quite similar despite the change in heavy cavalry.

I think the main difference was that I felt it necessary to be sure I either had superior number or managed to disrupt at least one unit in their line before the cavalry charge in, but I also had one more cavalry unit in the second game. The feeling I was after were that it would be dangerous to be caught up in melee. I perhaps should add another impact even if four is maximum, I'm not sure that rule need to be so strict perhaps. I did wanted to make it important for the knights to not be caught in melee with tough infantry such as Men-at-Arms, the knights would after all represent about half the number of soldiers as in the dismounted version.

And as you said, both terrain and command will obviously change a great deal if changed in scenarios. That and you can add special rules such as hidden troops, reinforcements and all kinds of twists and turns. :)

Long story short, there were not much difference in performance of the knights and I'm not sure it made much difference. They were strong enough to do the job and their high type and speed mattered more on the whole I guess. I could also imagine the cavalry unit as actually being more numerous as well to explain their good values, I perhaps thought that would be easier to some extent, especially if I wanted to replace one mounted with one dismounted unit.

There are few things not to like about this game and how flexible it seem to be... ;)

I'll read that report... seemed like an awesome game.
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